Vista Security

I know. NP

This is starting to look like another Apple/Microsoft bun fight. I am an experienced Vista user who makes lots of changes and still have UAC on. The fun comes when your mind is finely tuned to expect the UAC prompt and you are there ready to click it. Sometimes, just sometimes you then do something and think 'where is the UAC prompt, surely it should have prompted me'.
Just enjoy your Vista or OSX and their funny quirks - I know I do.

Just to be clear, I wasn't bagging on Dave, just the guy in the article.

I have no idea what your discussion is about, I guess I am uneducated :_0, just interesting the yahoo and Dan brought it up at the same time. It seems like many don't like vista, enough people to place their discussion on yahoo's front page.

There are several in the article, but just sticking to the copied excerpt for the sake of brevity...

nags you with an “Are you sure????” prompt every time you try to do anything beyond run the calculator.

Not true, as we've already discussed ad nauseum in this post. I realize this particular statement is probably a deliberate exaggeration, so I can let that slide.

UAC is the linchpin of Vista’s vaunted new security system

Many people who actually understand all the security related changes in Vista can easily argue that claim. I don't recall Microsoft ever positioning UAC as "the lichpin", but rather one part of a larger security focus.

Without it, it’s really no different than XP.

Again, so obviously not correct that most educated people would probably just take it as a humorous exaggeration, but it kind of seems like he's positioning at a serious article.

I'd excuse the exaggerations in the Apple ad for that reason (it's obviously exaggerated for the sake of humor), but this article seems to be going for a more serious analysis, in which case the exaggeration and speculation doesn't fit.

How do you figure? What uneducated reflections did he give without facts?

It sounds like you are finding fault again just because he disagrees with you?

That blog entry Dave linked to is a good example of how uneducated reflections of personal experience lead to presenting an opinionated review that isn't grounded in the facts.

On yahoo today they are talking about this same subject.

Your original posting is # 3... 3) It's annoying. I don't know any Vista user who hasn't turned off User Account Control, which nags you with an "Are you sure????" prompt every time you try to do anything beyond run the calculator. Yet UAC is the linchpin of Vista's vaunted new security system. Without it, it's really no different than XP.

http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/18085

Yeah, and I guess I should also acknowledge that yes, for all the users who are constantly changing their clock and updating their system settings every five minutes, the prompts could, in fact, get annoying.

[quote comment="210167"]The only reason I tend to be more vocal about Apple's failings and flaws than Microsoft's, is because I see an imbalance and an inconsistent application of criticism / cynicism when it comes to the two companies, and I think it's healthier to try and balance that out. If that comes off as me stating that Apple is always "bad" in comparison to MS, it isn't intentional.[/quote]
I finally understand, it makes complete sense now, you are my yang to my yin. Why didn't you say that earlier?
As for the analogy, I don't like it. Because this post is meant to be opinion and experience based not factual arguments on why it's better here or there. You did point out some factual mistakes I made which is good like restarts, I should have been more clear but all in all it's about how I think it's annoying. And if I think it's annoying it must be a fact that everyone else will too ;)

I do see the differences, I just don't think they are big problems the way you do. I don't know how much clearer I can get on that.

Changing system settings (or even viewing them) - including changing the system time - are rare activities, so even if Vista made them enter a password whenever they did it, it wouldn't bother me too much just because it isn't going to happen often in daily use.

Apparently the Darfur anaology didn't take, but I can be opinionated about things as long as I have the facts straight, regardless of whether I use the operating systems in question on a daily basis. If I don't have my facts straight, then I would acknowledge that and re-evaluate, but so far in this conversation I don't think we've been arguing over that.

I can certainly understand that in your experience you are getting prompted a lot, but like I said earlier, that is only because you are doing a lot of setup and configuration work right now. Most people won't be doing that.

If you are doing an extended session of setup / configuration and want to turn off the prompts while you do that, you easily can do that and then turn UAC back on when you're done, so I just don't see where the problem is even in that case.

Finally, please don't say that my "stand" is that "everything Apple does is bad in comparison to MS". I've never said that, and I don't believe it. My main gripe is people who continually compare the two companies (either their products or their business practices) with a predetermined bias that MS is bad and Apple is good. I believe that neither Apple nor MS is completely "good", and I'd rather evaluate the things they do on a case by case basis, rather than approaching it with a predetermined favorite. I don't think that's too "outlandish".

The only reason I tend to be more vocal about Apple's failings and flaws than Microsoft's, is because I see an imbalance and an inconsistent application of criticism / cynicism when it comes to the two companies, and I think it's healthier to try and balance that out. If that comes off as me stating that Apple is always "bad" in comparison to MS, it isn't intentional.

Vista defaults the user as admin so we are not getting into this conversation again. So please don't bring up a "regular" user wont be prompted.


Maybe I should do a screen cast of one of my mornings.[quote comment="210096"]Nope, I completely understand the difference, ... I stated above that the OSX asks you for your password when changing system settings, and you've confirmed that, so what is your point in this regard?[/quote]
With those statements you don't see the difference, in OS X or most Linux distros for that matter you are only asked to verify the change with a password, Vista on the other hand asks to view. There's a huge difference.

I don't see time settings in that list.

I always bring up your use because you aren't experienced in OS X and you aren't experienced in Final Vista. So how can you be opinionated by this subject at all? If only not to continue your outlandish stand on everything that Apple does is bad in comparison to MS.

Honestly, I don't get your points and never will. My experience is my opinion and I really don't want to get into this again, even if I posted about what you'd say. It's clearly my opinion, it's not fact but it is clearly my experience and my experience isn't wrong in any way. If I --represented-- my experience wrong then fine but don't try to prove me wrong in non-factual statements.


Conclusion, Vista asking to do everything (or everything that I've done) is annoying to ME, OS X and Linux security isn't annoying to ME (in my experience).

PS - it's also likely that you're seeing more prompts because you're running as an admin. For example, an admin who runs the Device Manager will get a prompt when they open it, after which they can use it, whereas a regular user will not be prompted, but Device Manager will open in read only mode.

Here's a list of stuff that UAC prompts for; let me know which ones you think it shouldn't prompt for:
* Installing and uninstalling applications
* Installing device drivers
* Installing ActiveX controls
* Installing Windows Updates
* Changing settings for Windows Firewall
* Changing UAC settings
* Configuring Windows Update
* Adding or removing user accounts
* Changing a user’s account type
* Configuring Parental Controls
* Running Task Scheduler
* Restoring backed-up system files
* Viewing or changing another user’s folders and files

Nope, I completely understand the difference, and I still say that it's minor in my book. Like I said, regular usage does not generate those prompts.

You have a skewed perception of the frequency of these prompts, because most of the time you spend in Vista you are installing and/or configuring stuff. Please correct me if I'm wrong on that assertion.

I love how you frequently question how much time I've spent in OSX (or in this case, OSX and Vista), when it's irrelevant to the points I'm making. Just to get it out of the way, I never really use OSX anymore. In other news, I've never been to Darfur, but I still feel comfortable in stating that I oppose genocide. PS - and don't get all bent out of shape about me "comparing" Apple to murderers :)

I stated above that the OSX asks you for your password when changing system settings, and you've confirmed that, so what is your point in this regard?

[quote comment="210081"]Now that Vista has them, Apple fanboys turn around and mock them for it, when they're basically doing a slight variation...
...I'd be willing to bet that people routinely ignore these safety prompts all the time, regardless of whether they're on Windows or the Mac OS.[/quote]
These slight variations are completely annoying for me and I'd expect for the "average user" too.
I don't think you understand the variation because it's not slight at all. One requires a password for any system modification (OS X) and the other requires you to say okay for access to any system preference or any item that can modify the system. And the annoyance factor is complete difference between the two.
When was the last time you ran Vista (final) for 4 hours straight or OS X for that matter?

It isn't annoying to me at all. Regular usage doesn't generate prompts like this. People do not frequently change these kinds of settings, so who cares? Your "average user" is rarely going to be installing new software and changing system settings, and that's exactly who this is for.

Also, you mentioned restarting after installation. That is not a requirement that Vista imposes, it's up to how the software developers write their software and has nothing to do with Microsoft.

What I remarked last night was that it's funny to me that the required prompts when working with system settings have been touted for years as one of the primary security advatages OSX had over XP. Now that Vista has them, Apple fanboys turn around and mock them for it, when they're basically doing a slight variation of what Apple has already been doing for a while.

Do constant prompts encourage people to eventually ignore them? Sure, but it's an acceptable measure that both operating systems (OSX and Windows) now employ. When was the last time you (as a Mac user) got a popup when trying to install an app you just downloaded and decided not to install it? I'd be willing to bet that people routinely ignore these safety prompts all the time, regardless of whether they're on Windows or the Mac OS.

@Jared: That "demo" I briefly showed you last night was wrong. I don't know why it's different but a standard install asks every time. The reason for the difference is either the VM image is a trial install or the account was configured differently through the auto install of parallels. The reason I know, I have a real install with bootcamp and it asks.

Another annoyance is the screen flashes black EVERYTIME it asks you a question like this.